Elicitation and The Art of Conversation

Season 2 Episode 7 Ellicitation
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Cristina: [00:00:00] Welcome to Morning Coffee and Mimosas. I'm Christina. 

Joe: And I'm Joe. 

Cristina: We are a father-daughter duo. We come here Sunday mornings, but you can come here anytime you please. We banter about life, about business, and we do it over coffee. And mimosas.

Joe: Good morning. 

Cristina: Good morning, FAJ. 

Joe: I love that line. I, I still love that opening 'cause we do it over. You know, coffee and mimosas and we banter about business and stuff and I love it because I have caffeine in me and you have alcohol in you. So 

Cristina: that's a little disingenuous right now. Some of our earlier episodes when, um, when, when we were in the midst of like 20, 21 and yeah.

Not doing a whole lot. Um, some, in some of those episodes, there were several mimosas drank. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Cristina: We'll have to ha we'll have to bring that. I don't have, I [00:01:00] actually two just have coffee today. 

Joe: I know. That's why I had a joke with her. 'cause, but, and now I'm worried because she's actually gonna be smart as hell now and, and I'm gonna have to be smarter.

Cristina: I don't know. I think that, I think that that champagne, Prosecco and Champagne, they heighten my senses. Me. Oh, all right. I'll find out next. Maybe for ne our next episode, we will go back to our roots and. You know, have a proper brunch 

Joe: that's correct for us to record 

Cristina: with. 

Joe: There you go. There you go. A 

Cristina: proper Prosecco mimosa.

I do, I do Prosecco with my mimosas. I know that's not like a traditional mimosa yeah's, you would do like a champagne, but that's my, yeah, it's Italian champagne, so it feels a little more authentic to me. 

Joe: Oh, okay. That's good. 

Cristina: Yeah, that's how I, that's how I rock a mimosa. 

Joe: And you know what's funny? I don't like champagne.

I happen to not like champagne. In fact, uh, I I not a champagne drinker at all. Well, you 

Cristina: don't drink any wines. 

Joe: No, I don't drink any wine. I'm not a wine drinker. I'm not a champagne drinker and [00:02:00] I can't drink beer anymore. 'cause of the celiac. Mm-hmm. The COVID, I mean the, uh, gluten-free. But, I was at an event and, One of the women there ordered this $300 bottle of champagne. And I was like, no, no, no. Don't waste it on me. You know? And, and she said, oh, well you're probably used to cheap champagne, you know, taste this and actually pour, pour. That's pour me a glass. A, 

Cristina: if you were a champagne drinker, you would be used to cheap champagne.

Right. 

Joe: And I'll never forget, I was like. You know, I just was feeling really bad, like, don't waste it on me, you know? And, uh, she poured it and, and made me taste it, and I tasted it and I said, I don't like it. I still don't like it. You like, still don't like it? And she was like, okay, good. Pour it in my glass.

Cristina: I mean, I have to say, I don't have a very, sophisticated palette for, I, I really enjoy. Like I love wine, I like a good Prosecco or champagne. But when I say a good one, like, actually like the Kirkland Prosecco, I really love and my favorite color is purple and the label is purple.

Oh. And [00:03:00] it's like 7 99 maybe 8 99 now. And that is an increase from its previous like. 6 99 when I started purchasing it. 

Speaker 3: Oh, wow. 

Cristina: So like I know that, you know, you see Kirkland, but I think that that's like a great Prosecco and if I'm just drinking it, that's usually what I'm drinking.

So like I've had, you know, you know, VU or the LA Morocco for, you know, VU is the champagne or LA Morocco, which is only like 13 or $14. I'm not saying that's super expensive, but like as I've gone up and I've had more expense. Expensive Proseccos. It's never made a difference to me. So I'm like, 

Joe: so I didn't know Costco was sponsoring this, podcast Kirkland.

Oh, Kirkland is sponsor. 

Cristina: I know. Maybe they will. 

Joe: All right guys. Christina's getting money from somewhere. I'm not, it's just, just, uh, letting you know he's 

Cristina: not privy to these brand deals. 

Joe: Yeah, we don't have a sponsor. We just, uh, we just do this. 

Cristina: He is wondering why the podcast is still costing him money. And here I am, Kirkland.

Joe: That's right. [00:04:00] Try their Prosecco. 

Cristina: Only 7 99. 

Joe: So I have a question for you. Where, uh, what'd you do yesterday? 

Cristina: What did I do yesterday? Yeah. Um, I mean I worked, it was, uh, or no, what's today's supposed to be? Sunday? 

Joe: Well, you can work on Saturday. Oh yeah. Okay. 

Cristina: We're recording. It's this Saturday morning. Okay guys.

Fine. We're recording on a Saturday morning, but we'll be with you on a Sunday morning. 

Speaker 3: That's right. 

Cristina: I worked, it was a Friday, before a long weekend. Uh, yeah, I worked. 

Joe: What'd you do Friday night last night? 

Cristina: a couple of my best girlfriends came by the pool with their kids. Oh. And we hung out.

It was nice. 

Joe: Where was your husband, Brad? 

Cristina: Where was Brad? He had, I mean, it's, uh, the, the season is approaching. He had a fantasy football draft. 

Joe: Oh, okay. 

Cristina: So we're approaching a holiday weekend. Um, why, what did you do? 

Joe: Me, I actually, I had a Wayne Chamber of Commerce, uh, ribbon cutting event last night. 

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Yeah. That sounds nice. [00:05:00] 

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's interesting. So how'd you like that? I was asking you all those questions. What'd, what'd you feel like? 

Cristina: Well, I mean, the question of where Brad was was interesting. I mean, I started feeling like I was in high school again, getting an interrogation. There 

Joe: you go.

Yeah. 

Cristina: But I mean, it was fine. I'm used to you being a little too nosy, I suppose. Oh, okay. But actually more mom, you generally are a man of few questions. 

Joe: Yeah, because you know that I really don't get, I don't really care. I, I really 

Cristina: More, more your, your line of questioning. It was curious to me, because you don't usually ask what I did the day before.

Joe: Right. Well, there was a reason for that. You're, you're 

Cristina: usually more, um, listeners. What you didn't see is that. Right before this, I was just forced to watch a 21 minute video on the Lucid Air and how it's an efficient vehicle. I was a captive audience and he was like, I think you're gonna really be interested in this.

And I was like, I have no idea what would possibly make you think I'd be interested in this, 

Joe: but I was just wanting you to [00:06:00] know that I made the correct purchase when I purchased my Lucid Air. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And he 

Cristina: has not stopped talking about it since. That's right. But, um, 

Joe: and, and listeners, if you don't know what.

What car that is. Look it up. It's the most beautiful car you've ever seen Luc Air. Or 

Cristina: just send a note and he'll send you way more content about it than you could possibly want. But, um, I hope you ODed that, that proves I love you that I sat there for 15 of the 21 minutes to actually. That's right.

Indulge you with watching that. 

Joe: There you go. You're the best 

Cristina: because I was yawning and, and nearly asleep for most of it. 

Joe: So I want, I have a question for you. Another question for you. Sure. So you said, you know, did, when I started asking you the questions and I asked you the questions around why wasn't, I didn't say it, but why wasn't Brad with you, you know, what went on, what triggered in your, in your brain, did you have any hesitation in giving me an answer?

Not that you were doing anything wrong and not that there was, you know, he was at, at one of his events and you were doing something but what went on in your brain because I was asking you [00:07:00] questions. 

Cristina: I think a little bit, uh, I mean, I was just answering your questions, right. I guess once you asked me about why Brad, where Brad was or why he wasn't there, I felt a little bit defensive.

Like I needed to, um, like I needed to prove to you that it was not a, it was not a weird thing that he would be not there on a Friday evening with me. 

Joe: Right. So like, 'cause it felt 

Cristina: like a little judgmental, like, where was Brad? There you go. Why were people at your house without him and I'm, which, you know, we, we do plenty of things independently, so Yeah.

It's not really weird, but I think that was a, if I were to say, okay, like initial reaction, pretty normal conversation, but you don't generally ask a lot of questions like that. And the where was Brad was kind of like, why is that weird that he should have been there? Mm-hmm. I mean, he had plans, 

Joe: right? And so that's the, this is where we're going with this episode.

So, Listeners, follow this along [00:08:00] because I think you're gonna be quite fascinated by this. 

Cristina: So 

Joe: when we want information, then isn't the natural thing. If I want to know something is I ask you a question, correct? 

Cristina: Yeah. 

Joe: So very often, and we'll go back and forth with this and you'll, have your, your viewpoints on this Christina, but very often.

When we ask questions, in the person you are speaking to, it can trigger a defense mechanism, in that person. Because depending on who you are and what the question is, and why, it can cause people to put up a kind of barrier and think about. Okay, what do I tell him? Now you, you know, you have a beautiful marriage For many years it was nothing to, nothing to worry about.

Brad was, you know, you were just like, no, he went to his, thing. [00:09:00] But if there was anything that you thought I should know, shouldn't know, or whatever, you will be. maneuvering the answer around that because it was a question 

Cristina: well, an end, right? So, that was a fun little demo that we just did there.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. 

Cristina: But it, it proves a, a point, right? And you probably could have taken it further and listeners, if you were hearing that, it probably didn't start to make you uncomfortable because it was only a couple of questions and they were pretty benign. But I would bet. If you were to close your eyes and imagine a conversation or a person that you're used to having conversations with from time to time.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 

Cristina: That every so often makes your stomach turn a little bit because they just probe a little too far, or they ask inappropriate questions in front of the wrong audience, or they just don't know boundaries when it comes to information [00:10:00] gathering. Mm-hmm. That is kind of what. We want you to think about right now.

So the person where you know, you're meeting somebody for the first time, or you see somebody and you're excited about information, you tell them about a new job and they ask you, oh, what are you making? Or you are wearing a new piece of jewelry and somebody asks, how much did that cost? Or, you are. Uh, wearing something new and they ask, where did you buy that?

Um, you know, or who, who gave that to you? Or like, all of these can be very benign, easy questions. And from the right person and, and right in the right context, maybe there's nothing there. Mm-hmm. Um, but what we wanna talk about today is the concept of elicitation. And what that means is that. There are different techniques that can drive a much more normal [00:11:00] engaging and less defensive reaction from the person that you're talking with that will get to.

Information that's, a more honest discussion about what things are aren't what's going on without people having their defenses up. 

Speaker 3: Right. 

Cristina: and it's cool because it's ki it's, it's the art of, it's making statements. Versus asking questions. 

Joe: Exactly. 

Cristina: And the, the human behavior behind it is that people react much better to statements because if you say something to me that is different, like if you said to me, when you were asking those questions, if we were to play that role, play back, if you said, oh, I'd imagine you always have a real busy Friday night, I might have said.

It really wasn't actually that busy. It was super low key. My girlfriends came by, you know, with their kids and we just hung by the pool, and then you might've said, oh, that sounds nice. I'd imagine [00:12:00] Brad was probably there. And I'd say, or, or you might have said, 

Joe: no, I, no, I would, would, I'd imagine 

Cristina: Brad was probably out doing something else since you were home with girlfriends.

Well, I 

Joe: was, I was gonna say, I'm sure Brad was bored out of his mind. Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly. And then you're gonna gimme the information. No, Brad went to his, uh, to his thing, you know? Yeah. And, and again, I'm sorry, I didn't mean cut you, you off. No, you're a hundred percent 

Cristina: right. 

Joe: But that's exactly, exactly it.

And so when you wanna find out. Information 

Cristina: and you, it don't, doesn't mean to say like this is like an investigation and no interrogation. Right. But like, when you're trying to have a conversation, 

Joe: yes. But if you are also trying to, find out more information, the best way to do it is not through questions necessarily, but.

Through a statement. 

Cristina: So let's say that, uh, dad, you dreamt of being a garbage man as a young boy, right? 

Joe: Yeah, I was six, but go ahead. Okay.

Cristina: So like, let's say that, uh, you [00:13:00] know, I can imagine having a conversation with somebody where, let's say the garbage men came, you're ready to give them their Christmas tip. You go outside and, you've got, you know, a 50 spot for each of them. And you say, guys. I have to say I am really looking at getting into the waste disposal business.

I heard on a recent, uh, a recent, I read a recent article that waste management, professionals like yourself are making $175,000 a year plus bonus. You guys are in the right gig. I don't know what I'm doing. 

Joe: Right. And what that's gonna do is. They will because human nature is to correct the information.

They will correct. They will go, what? Where did you read $175,000 a year? I don't get paid that. I don't, I don't know. Hey Bill, where, where might you go to make 

Speaker 3: that? 

Joe: You know, you know, we don't make half that, you know, [00:14:00] so you're gonna get better information because people like to correct. Information, 

Cristina: and you're also not gonna offend people.

Right. Because that's a conversation that is, it feels more na it's a natural conversation. Mm-hmm. Versus them feeling like you're intrusive and, and you know, you lack boundaries. 

Joe: Right. And I'm gonna take this now, you know again, 'cause you are, you're. Uh, a VP in sales and you've done, you know, tremendous amount of work in sales and training and stuff like that.

I have done the same thing, you know, sales training and, and all that kind of stuff. 

Cristina: Yeah. Yeah. You've done it all. You've done it all. You've done it all. 

Joe: And you, um, and I teach, you know, open-ended questions. Closed-ended questions and stuff. And so let's use an example of car sales. Alright? Since neither of us are in car sales, let's use that example.

Cristina: Wait before you give this example. Yes, 

Joe: yes. 

Cristina: Did. This concept not kind of blow your mind a little bit because it, it turns everything that like, you know, [00:15:00] kind of like traditional, uh, you know how, I can't think of how many times I've talked or talked to my team about, um, the value of open-ended questions, 

Speaker 3: right?

Cristina: And you know the difference between asking a yes or no question to asking an open question. So the whole concept of statements versus questions is just totally different than everything that I feel like every sales training. Um, has taught for my entire career. Correct. 

Joe: Now the questions are very important.

Right? Agreed. Right. So they are not, we are not eliminating that as a, as a, as a tool because, and it still is valid. It's very valid because, first of all, an open-ended question and then to just to give it to you if you don't know what they are. An open-ended question is a question, for example, you know, how do you feel today?

You know, it's an open-ended question. It could be, I have a headache, I have a back ache. I feel great. I could, it could be any. Any number of answers a closed end question is, um, Christina. Um, how many cars do you have? [00:16:00] 

Cristina: Or it would be more, are you having a good day? Yes, 

Joe: yes or no. In other words, the closed end question is, but how do you feel a number?

Mm-hmm. Or an an answer or yes or no type of thing. Now there's a purpose for that. Closed-end questions can also change direction. If someone's going in a certain direction, you can change it by asking a closed-end question and get them mm-hmm. Off open-ended questions are very, very important for, for different things.

However, what we're, what, what are you most 

Cristina: excited about this week? Exactly. That's an open question versus, you know, correct. How do you feel? 

Joe: Correct. But, um, we, we are, we are talking about sometimes, sometimes the questions, if you are going to ask it, depending on the circumstance, can elicit a. Barrier, uh, from the person answering the question, depending on who you are and what the question is, and so on.

So it's another tool, and it works really, really well because the human nature is that, you know, if you say [00:17:00] something to me as a statement and I don't agree with it, I want to correct that statement. Mm-hmm. Right? So let's, for example, let's use the car sales. Salesperson. And let's say it's a Chevrolet dealer that you go into and you happen to come in with a, which, um, Christina is selling actually a Lincoln.

So let's use the Lincoln. No. 

Cristina: Is this a shameless plug? 

Joe: It's a shameless plug. 2019 

Cristina: Lincoln, MKC. There you go. 80,000, 87 miles right now. Um, 

Joe: well, I'll tell you between the other thing and this, he's trying to make more money. I didn't know. I didn't know what Kirk, he has a lot of Kirkland space for 

Cristina: Kirkland.

Joe: Yeah. Prosecco God. Anyway, now, now, oh, I go, I guess now most the sale, a a good sales person would ask questions, what are you looking for? You know, what type of car you're looking for? How do you use the car? Do you drive a lot? Do you not? Do you have children? Do you have not have children? Do you, you know, carry people around?

All [00:18:00] of these things that would be absolutely valid to guide you into the correct car. However, being a salesperson, many people are defensive when they ask questions. 'cause you may have pulled into the Chevy dealer just to look, and I, I've done that before I bought my car, I went to different dealers. I just wanted to look.

Touch, see the cars 

Cristina: Well, and as a, a car, I'm sorry, daddy, I didn't mean okay to, 

Joe: yes you did, but go ahead. 

Cristina: As some like car salesman. Um, I think psychics, like when you are talking to these people, you are, your defenses are up already because, you know, this person is generally right.

Just trying to find out how much they can charge you. Right. Psychic is just trying to find out information that they can use to make you feel like they, that they know something they don't. Right. Right. So people are naturally defensive in situations where people are asking questions. 

Joe: Right. So in that [00:19:00] example, if that car sales person said, um, Oh, I see you have a Lincoln. Those are beautiful cars. You know, I bet you you've really enjoyed that car You know, they're, they're just wonderful. Now, they, he made, he or she made a statement, and the reason I'm saying that is, is because that is more likely to elicit something in you where you might say.

Yeah, I did like the car, but I have to tell you, do you realize I had a, I had a transmission replaced. They had to replace the engine. I've had some problems with this. I'm not buying another Lincoln. 

Cristina: Well, and imagine if you had said as this, as the person, you said, oh, I see you have a Lincoln. Oh, it's impossible to get people out of Lincolns.

they're very loyal. Right. And, and you sit with i'd, I'd be like, well, you know, I've actually had a Lincoln from the last two cars and I am just over it. 

Joe: Right. And that's why I'm here at a Chevrolet dealership. Yeah. Or whatever dealership you're at. Exactly. And that's my point is our point is the fact that it's a technique.

Make a statement, you know that [00:20:00] that will get the person to talk about. Well, it gets people to not only think, but if it's a statement that causes them to want to correct. Your statement. That's why you used, you know, the garbage person, you know, saying, wow, I, I heard they make $175,000.

You're gonna go n no, I did actually hear something 

Cristina: like that at one point. 

Joe: Well, if you own, maybe if you own the, 

Cristina: I don't know. 

Joe: But anyway, this is, the point of, of this is that, eliciting elicitation of and use statements to do that is extremely. powerful. 

Cristina: Yeah. And, thinking about it like we gave some, you know, sales you know, examples and things like that, or a conversation, you know, a familial conversation.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 

Cristina: Um, but I really just, I, I think it's, uh, an art of conversation. It's when you think about situations where you're meeting [00:21:00] new people, situations where. You're talking to people that you engage with all the time. I think it's, it just, it, it will make for more enjoyable exchanges. Mm-hmm. With people.

And I think, you know, I feel that when someone's talking to me like it's, it's more pleasant, right? If you're reacting to absolutely things than if you feel like you're being interrogated or put on the spot, right? Mm-hmm. Because it gives you the opportunity to decide how you're gonna respond versus somebody asking you something that then puts you in a position that.

You either have to say, I'd really rather not share or answer. 

Joe: Right? That's right. 

Cristina: So try it with kids. Probably great for, you know, like mm-hmm. Um, when you, you know, a kid comes home from school like, uh, man, it was a hot one today. You all must have been sweltering on the playground. They might say, yeah, I was, 

Joe: yeah, 

Cristina: I don't know.

That was a bad example. 

Joe: [00:22:00] That's a bad one. 'cause I see kids, you know, like in a, they look for any reason to not answer the playground. Even in the winter, it's like 10 degrees outside and they're in shorts and short sleeve shirts and they're playing basketball and I'm like, oh my God. Yeah. I apparently have no idea 

Cristina: how to speak to children.

So, yeah. I mean, but, but definitely elicitation could work there too. 

Joe: Yeah. But it's, you know, and, and, and this is the point of what we wanted to, they be like, Christina, you 

Cristina: have no Riz No riz at all. 

Joe: That's right. That's right. But that's the, that's the point is, is, you know, try the statement, you know, make a statement, make a, uh.

Y you know, um, something like make it appear that, you know, you learned something about what they, 

Cristina: something provocative do or 

Joe: whatever, and people will, will try to correct that and give you the information that you were really looking for. Yeah. It's very effective. It's very effective. And it's not, it's, it's not, don't ask questions.

It's another tool. 

Cristina: [00:23:00] Yeah. I mean, to use, yeah. Open-ended question. I mean, there's still a good place for thoughtful questions. Absolutely. Um, but it's another way to, another way to not. Be interrogating people when you're talking to them. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think just drive good conversation. And I also don't want this to sound like it's not intended to be manipulative in any way.

So like, it shouldn't be, oh, just say some, say something that's complete bullshit that gets somebody to then, you know, give you the information that you want. 

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 

Cristina: I really look at it like it's just a less disarming way to have a conversation and to get at, you know. Really getting to know people mm-hmm.

Versus, you know, the what can sometimes happen otherwise. 

Joe: Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, you know, like you said, conversational, you know, if you're, you know, usually questions that you're not in a cool conversation. You're not asking a whole bunch of questions. No. But we've 

Cristina: all been in conversations, we, when you see somebody for the first time and it's like, how do I get out of this?

Like, also, like when [00:24:00] you're, so, especially in a social environment mm-hmm. You sometimes don't wanna be. know, you wanna have like a natural exchange. You don't wanna be answering questions 

Joe: Right. 

Cristina: Over and over again. 

Joe: Right. 

Cristina: So, 

Joe: exactly. So it was great. 

Cristina: Yeah, it was great. Well, listeners, thank you for being with us.

Um, it's the end of summer. So that means like, you know, back to reality, back to, uh, us getting on our normal schedule. So thanks if you've been poking around on the podcast app on Sunday mornings and haven't found us there. we just wanna keep you on your toes, you know, so 

Speaker 3: keep showing up, up. We 

Cristina: will keep showing up as well.

And, uh, if you like what you hear, please share it with a friend. Share it with somebody that. you think could benefit from this, maybe share it with the person that you hate talking with the most because they don't know boundaries. And ask all the wrong questions. You're right. Um, and if you like this, give it a follow and subscribe, whatever, whatever it is that we need to do now to stay in your feed.

Joe: Thank you. [00:25:00] Wherever you are, whatever your story. Thanks for spending time with us this morning now. Go and make a difference in your world.

Yeah. I just want you to know, you know, not because I work for a credit union, but I 

Speaker 3: do it. 

Joe: I just built an ATM that only gives out coins. I don't know why no one's thought of it before. It just makes sense. 

Cristina: I knew it was coming, but I was just trying to stay quiet. Thought maybe we'd eek it out without a dad joke.